Curse

Bobby2 · Mar 26, 2008, 05:15 AM // 05:15

P*SSY SINS FTW!

I'm going to try and summarize a lot of the discussion in this post. As has come forward in various threads a lot of the build depends on the user's personal preference, but at least the majority of us agree that some skills should be staple, namely:

[skill]death blossom[/skill][skill]moebius strike[/skill]
These are the skills that make Assassins such awesome AoE damage machines. Due to our low AL it's generally unwise to dive in first, but once engaged we're free to mow down just about anything. Armor-ignoring damage ftw!
[skill]critical agility[/skill]
More attacking means more (Critical) hits, which translates into more damage, adrenaline, and energy. The first cast usually lasts through the entire fight. Don't leave home without it!

Now for my stuff. Don't worry, plenty of it is optional and I'll try to discuss variations.

Attributes
Critical Strikes 12+1 (gloves)
Dagger Mastery 12+1+1 (mask)

--- Critical Strikes should be at 13, the threshhold for maximum energy gain as you will be CONSTANTLY hitting stuff if you're doing it right. Maxed Dagger Mastery without sacrificing HP for it.

--- Some people make use of a third attribute line, commonly for utility skills. Dropping 1 point of Dagger Mastery for this (getting the 3rd attribute to 6) is viewed as most ideal... 2 points becomes niggly.

Weapons
15^50, +30, Zealous Daggers
15^50, +30, Ebon Daggers
+5e, +30, Furious Spear/AR+10v.cold, +30 Shield
+5e, +20%ench, Vampiric Longbow

--- A 15^50 req. should not be hard to fulfil. Zealous is your standard combat set, swap to defensive set when out of combat etc. Ebon Daggers are more for eventualities (eg, baddies with AL+Xv.physical). Instead of 15^50's, 15^ench'd work just as well in most areas.

--- AR+10v.cold Shield is purely because EotN features a lot of Cold damage.

--- Longbow for pulling. +20%ench comes in handy sometimes, and there's already a dedicated defensive set.

Armor
Full Survivor (+1 Dagger Mask)
+1 Dagger rune, +1 Critical rune
Sup Vigor, 2 Vitae

--- In my opinion, there are really only 2 choices for any Assassin: Radiant or Survivor. My experience has taught me it's best to stack up on HP:
- we have awesome energy management available.
- more natural HP gives your Monks a nice big buffer to get you out of danger after a nasty spike.
- following the above, it also means you don't have to spend precious time and skill slots on crap self-heals.

--- Do note that this is also why I would advise against Major/Superior attribute runes. The bit of extra damage does not justify the HP sacrifice (as you will be forced to retreat more often).

The general build I have settled on (note careful wording )
[golden fox [email protected]][wild [email protected]][save yourselves][death [email protected]][moebius [email protected]][critical [email protected]][critical agility][asuran scan]

~~~ [skill]golden fox strike[/skill][skill]wild strike[/skill]: mainly chosen for their quick recharge and unblockability.

--- On the subject of leads/offhands, there are 2 different 'schools of thought' if you will:
- Faction A's PoV: 'Kill stuff ASAP.'
- Faction B's PoV: 'Deal as little damage as possible with your intro for DB/MS - you will get more Blossoms in - thus increasing overall pressure damage.'
~ This last assumption, of course, largely depends on someone's personal play style.

...I suppose then there's guys like me, who don't really care... as long as their attacks are guaranteed to connect

Variations befitting
- Faction A: [skill]unsuspecting strike[/skill][skill]golden fang strike[/skill]
- Faction B: [skill]golden phoenix strike[/skill][skill]sneak attack[/skill], [black mantis thrust]
The recharge of [[Golden Phoenix Strike] can be a bit of a drag, since stuff tends to die REALLY fast once you start beating, but it's a great way of freeing up a slot. Be aware that enchant strips will shut you down, however. [[Black Mantis Thrust] comes into its own on bars featuring [[Asuran Scan]... not many other Hexes are worth a spot.

Special mention goes to the Lead-[skill]exhausting assault[/skill][skill]moebius strike[/skill][skill]death blossom[/skill] chain - at the cost of immediate frontal damage, you get an interrupt. Very nasty in the hands of a good player. Due to the early Dual, this chain is great at charging [[Save Yourselves!] too.

~~~ [skill]critical eye[/skill]: a very nice overall buff. Prime contender: [skill]critical strike[/skill]

--- Most agree additional energy management is needed. No, wearing Radiant armor is not the answer. Why I chose Eye over Strike:
- You don't have to be chaining to benefit from it.
- If you ARE chaining, you don't have to sacrifice an opportunity to Blossom.
- Unstrippability is veeery nice.

~~~ [skill]asuran scan[/skill]: insta cast hex that sends your single-target DPS flying beyond comprehension. Blossom's AoE damage is NOT increased, so if you're going for mob pressure you might not want to use it. That's difficult, I know.

~~~ [skill]save yourselves[/skill]: this skill is what made me go /W.

--- From r3 onwards, it's without a doubt the best party support skill available to you, at r7 it can be maintained 100% no problem with only minor investment in your Hero set up. I wouldn't say it's mandatory, but if you're going to swap this out... you'd better have a DAMN good reason. Ask your Monk sometime.

Other good skills:

[skill]you move like a dwarf[/skill][skill]finish him[/skill][skill]club of a thousand bears[/skill][skill]shadow sanctuary[/skill][skill]pain inverter[/skill][skill]brawling headbutt[/skill][skill]light of deldrimor[/skill][skill]sneak attack[/skill]

[skill]assassin's remedy[/skill][skill]critical defenses[/skill]
commonly seen defensive buffs

If you're comfortable giving up [save yourselves] (for example, when pairing up with an Imbagon friend):

[skill]mystic regeneration[/skill][conjure frost][conjure lightning][conjure flame] or the ever-so-awesome [grasping earth] (if only we could pack it as A/W

)

--- Note: do not overestimate the Conjures, especially in HM. The extra damage is NOT armor-ignoring, and speccing off your 2 main attributes will either compromise your energy maintenance (spec off CS), or decrease AoE damage to adjacent foes (spec off DM).

--- Since its PvE un-nerfing [skill]mystic regeneration[/skill] once again enables Moebius farming. You need Earth Prayers to be at a hefty 8 for this, so the yellow numbers aren't going to be as pretty.

...

... so yeah. GFL y'all.

madriel222 · Mar 26, 2008, 05:29 AM // 05:29

I generally don't use a Rez in PvE, so my build would be slightly different. In my own experience, Golden Fox+Wild Strike+DB and MS is the best available combo for a sin (mostly because it breaks through all those blocking stances and the like that you'll see in late game PvE). Rounded out with "Save Yourselves," Crit Agility, Crit Defenses, and Crit Eye, that's the best sin build I've used.

Tyla · Mar 26, 2008, 05:30 AM // 05:30

I still prefer Scythesin, but overall, that's the best you can get with Daggers these days.

Luminarus · Mar 26, 2008, 09:09 AM // 09:09

Critical Agility
Critical Defences
Golden Pheonix Strike
Death Blossom
Moebius
Critical Strike
Save Yourselves
Optional (Ebon Battle Standard of Honor, or Pain Inverter are ones I like.)

BlackSephir · Mar 26, 2008, 11:02 AM // 11:02

I often go with Sneak Attack, Wild Strike instead of Golden Phoenix Strike, to laugh at melee bosses

Splitisoda · Mar 26, 2008, 11:13 AM // 11:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

I still prefer Scythesin, but overall, that's the best you can get with Daggers these days.

Wait so you run A/D for PvE? Does that even work?

Pyro maniac · Mar 26, 2008, 11:16 AM // 11:16

Club of Thousand Bears - Falling Lotus Strike - Death Blossom - Moebius Strike - Critical Defenses - Critical Agility -

Unreal Havoc · Mar 26, 2008, 04:19 PM // 16:19

For PvE I generally run:

Critical Agility
Critical Eye
Unsuspecting Strike
Golden Fang Strike
Death Blossom
Moebius Strike
Save Yourselves
Resurrection Signet

[DE] · Mar 26, 2008, 04:24 PM // 16:24

What I run in PvE. It's a lot more versatile than you'd expect with two ways to start the combo and great energy management.

Sneak Attack
Golden Fang Strike
Death Blossom
Moebius Strike
Brawling Headbutt
Falling Lotus Strike
Critical Agility
Sunspear Rebirth Signet

If you must take SY you can opt out of your res or drop brawling + falling lotus for SY + a utility skill.

Akolo · Mar 26, 2008, 07:57 PM // 19:57

This is EXACTLY what all sins run on our guild trips XD
oh wait, no wild strike and optional lead attack instead of golden phoenix (too long recharge, really)

Cathode_Reborn · Mar 26, 2008, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Moebius
Crit Agility
Club of a thousand bears
"Save yourselves"
Golden Fox Strike
Wild strike
Death Blossom
Critical eye

No res, I leave that to the H/H. If I have to use a res, somethin's wrong with the team. Crit agility + Nightstalker insignias bring the armor level to what a warrior has, so no self-healing needed. All 3 of those pve skills are glued to the bar, haven't changed them in a while. I usually run an Orders hero with Dark Fury for more "SY" spam and +dmg.

Sin DPS is so insane with Orders, you can often get away with a defense-heavy team and still have enough damage to handle mobs.

FlamingMetroid · Mar 26, 2008, 09:33 PM // 21:33

golden fox strike
wild strike
death blossom
moebius strike
critical strike
mystic regeneration
crit agility
crit defenses

res = for PUGs, PUGs = for failzzz
don't like GPS except when farming, 8sec recharge ftl
wild strike does good damage, and can remove the most common from of blocking in PvE.
I bring critical strike instead of critical eye, because I like the guarantied energy gain better than the cross-your-fingers one from crit eye.
I use mystic regen because I like to tank mobs and I usually bring all casters other than myself. The nerf didn't do anything to it other than make it take slightly more attention. Probably should try SY though, I really like it on my warrior.

Bowstring Badass · Mar 26, 2008, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akolo

This is EXACTLY what all sins run on our guild trips XD
oh wait, no wild strike and optional lead attack instead of golden phoenix (too long recharge, really)

I find Golden Phoenix on a short enough recharge because my mob of 27 minions kills everything before I have to switch targets..

Bobby2 · Mar 27, 2008, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Club of a Thousand Bears

Now this is PRECISELY the kind of suggestion I was hoping to receive. Its interaction with Moebius (and Critical Strike) is beautiful, giving Sins a perma-knocklock rivalling that of the feared Dragon Slash (God Mode) W/P build.

Noting this one down as a must-have.

On Golden Fox Strike - Wild Strike

This really falls into the 'optional' slots, worthy in block-heavy areas. A significant benefit, also, is that you don't actually NEED to be enchanted to make it work, which is nice in areas with enchant-stripping foes.

EDIT: This, in combination with it's faster recharge, has proven invaluable in high-level areas.
So now, imo, GFS-Wild > GPS. (See first post).

On BlackSephir's worthy suggestion of Sneak Attack: juicy, but we're only allowed 3 PvE skills

When I have to choose between perma-KD or Blind, it's quite easy IMHO.

EDIT: and look where I ended up.

On Critical Strike VS Critical Eye, I tend to agree with FlamingMetroid. Its criminal on-demand energy gain can't be beaten.

@ Cathode: I don't know if Nightstalker's even stacks with the AL bonus granted by CritAgility - but even so Survivor's are better taking AI target selection into account. I do like your Hero team suggestions.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

CURRENT STANDING
A/W
Critical Strikes: 12+1
Dagger Mastery: 12+1+1

Golden Phoenix Strike, Critical Strike, Moebius Strike, Death Blossom
"Save Yourselves!", Critical Agility, Club of a Thousand Bears

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 slot left to discuss! My first guess would be Critical Defenses, it's hard to beat a permanent 75% block and it makes healing you that much easier for your Monks.

#####

More thoughts on Hero selection too plz! Thinking
Dark Fury
Weapon of Fury
or maybe Hayda and Morgahn both running Anthem of Fury <3 <3 <3

RavagerOfDreams · Mar 27, 2008, 01:51 AM // 01:51

or possibly run the orders derv to pump in damage and andren

FlamingMetroid · Mar 27, 2008, 01:56 AM // 01:56

don't really like CoaTB, 12 recharge ftl. If you need a KD, throw HotO in there, more availability. I also like Crit Defenses, and as for heroes, Splinter Weapon + Mark of Pain + DB = need to change pants.

Marverick · Mar 27, 2008, 02:13 AM // 02:13

Moebius Strike recharges all attack skills.

IMO I would use Falling Lotus Strike or Falling Spider if you have Club.

FlamingMetroid · Mar 27, 2008, 02:30 AM // 02:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marverick

Moebius Strike recharges all attack skills.

IMO I would use Falling Lotus Strike or Falling Spider if you have Club.

crit strike = 14 energy with zealous daggers + hits twice + 6 recharge
falling lotus = 13 energy with zealous daggers + needs kd + 12 recharge
yay math
I run Sabway with my sin, and minions dying with Death Nova poisons things well enough for me. But yeah, I forgot about Moebius recharging CoaTB, It would work pretty well with that

Mr Pvper · Mar 27, 2008, 02:36 AM // 02:36

For Great Justice is a useful defensive skill to add on to help Save urselves (that is if ur Save urselves has a low duration of 3-4seconds or maybe 5). FGJ helps maintain Save urselves on ur allies with ease, providing more room for error as u will have to move n switch targets (hence u are not alaways building energy).

Bobby2 · Mar 27, 2008, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marverick

Moebius Strike recharges all attack skills.

IMO I would use Falling Lotus Strike or Falling Spider if you have Club.

LOL you might just run across a Human foe.

The real issue then would be:
Falling Lotus Strike VS Critical Strike

translated to

Club - FLS - DB - Moebius

VS

GPS - CritS - Moebius - DB (with Club thrown in for good measure)

Of these two, I like the usual combo better: people are dissatisfied with opening recharge as it is (GPS, 8sec.). Though Club-FLS is, admittedly, moar sexeh, the recharge is 12 and (again) the energy gain is not so readily available as with Critical Strike.

EDIT: FLS as the energy source doesn't guarantee a crit... CritAgility --> CritStrike ftw!

On FGJ!: ...I was looking for something more maintainable. Even on my Para, I only use FGJ! during Focused Anger's downtime. I'd like to solve adren issues on my Sin in another way.